book vii政治工作

book vii政治工作

自家读到了怎么?

  1. What is the shadows?? 这些题目c,k,栗子,s,
    壮都接近都有个别解答。作者并未答案,只是找到BenjaminJowett的那几个版本里头的语句

He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And
first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and
other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he
will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled
heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the
sun or the light of the sun by day?

在写shadows此前有段话

允许自身搬运下

ALLAN版本

Someone dragged him away from there byforce along the rough, steep,
upward way and did not let him go before he haddragged him out into the
light of the sun, wouldn’t he be distressed andannoyed at being so
dragged? And when he came to the light, wouldn’t he havehis eyes full of
its beam and be unable to see even one of the things now saidto be true?

其它2个版本

And suppose once more, that he isreluctantly dragged up a steep and
rugged ascent, and held fast until he isforced into the presence of the
sun himself, is he not likely to be pained andirritated? When he
approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he willnot be able to
see anything at all of what are now called realities.

翻译

“再说,假如有人硬拉他走上一条陡峭崎岖的坡道,直到把他拉出洞穴见到了外面的日光,不让他中途退回去,他会以为这么被逼迫着走很优伤,并且感到恼火;当他过来阳光下时,他会认为眼下月孛星乱蹦金蛇乱串,以致不能看见任何三个现行被称之为真正的事物的。你不以为会这么啊?

格:噢,的确不是须臾间就能看得见的。

苏:因而我以为,要他能在山洞外面的高处看得见东西,大约要求有二个逐年习惯的长河。首先大约看阴影是最不难,其次要数看人和其余东西在水中的倒影不难,再次是看东西我;经过那些之后她几乎会认为在夜间观望星术和天上本身,看月光和星光比白天看太阳和太阳光容易。

格:当然啰。

苏:[…]”

剪辑来自:柏拉图(Plato).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.

  1. What is the function of educator?
    教育工小编很热衷自主天资又好的学习者,似乎良田不用太多艰巨也能赢得满满,可是好像何人说过,能把最调皮的小不点儿教好才是好助教,更何况
    匈牙利(Hungary)语当中有句话叫做For those who can’t do,teach;for those who can’t
    teach,teach
    gym.足以讲明本身当导师的迷离,就是自家的义务到底是吗?揣度那几个书给了点启示,enlightener?or Inspiration??
    Maybe the answer is here

告诉各位,其实每种个体学习能力都留存,是何时哪个地点被何人唤醒而已,不知此人是或不是您的园丁而已。the
power and capacity of learning exists in the soul
already;(然后自身说下,作者相比了三个英文版本allan和benjamin的,而且也贴了中文,权当本身是个搬运工。而且对本身而言benjamin的本子英文好读点)

ALLAN版本

We must hold the following about thesethings:education is not what the
professions of certain men assert it to be.They presumably assert that
they put into the soul knowledge that isn’tin it, as though they were
putting sight into blind eyes.

除此以外一版本But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must
bewrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which
was notthere before, like sight into blind eyes.

“苏:如若那是没错的,那么关于这一个事,大家就务须有如下的见解:教育实际并不像某个人在温馨的生意中所宣称的那么。他们声称,他们能把灵魂里原来没有的知识传授到灵魂里去,好像他们能把视力放进瞎子的肉眼里去似的。”

剪辑来自:Plato(Plato).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.

除此以外一本子Whereas,our argument shows that the power and capacity
of learning exists in the soul already;and that just as the eye was
unable toturn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the
instrument ofknowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be
turned from the worldof becoming into that of being, and learn by
degrees to endure the sight ofbeing, and of the brightest and best of
being, or in other words, of the good.

Allan版本

But the present argument, on the otherhand, I said, indicates that this
power is in the soul of each, and that theinstrument with which each
learns-just as an eye is not able to turn toward thelight from the dark
without the whole body- must be turned around from thatwhichis coming
into beingtogether with the whole soul until it is ableto endure looking
at that which is and the brightest part of that which is. Andwe affirm
that this is the good, don’t we?

翻译

“苏:不过大家前日的实证注解,知识是各类人灵魂里都有个别一种能力,而各类人用来学习的五脏六腑就好像眼睛。——整个肉体不改变方向,眼睛是心有余而力不足离开一无可取转向光明的。同样,作为完全的魂魄必须转离变化世界,直至它的“眼睛”得以正面寓目实在,旁观全部实在中最明亮者,即大家所说的善者。是那样吗?”

剪辑来自:Plato(Plato).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.

  1. What is the difference between “coming into being “ vs “being“??

提这些标题是因为下车分享人的最后一句话让自家不解

再就是小编并未有答案,而且本身深感很多时候,就好像那么些单词shadow或是coming into
being或是being
随着那一个单口相声的书的行进,感觉每一回格附和一回赞同两遍,纵然同三个单词,又比上贰个议题里探讨的更深一遍。而且苏很黑的是,当自个儿快看完这一整章节,才了解了那个study划分的意思所在。谈及这五个层面的由来在于four
divisions; two for intellect and two for opinion, and to call thefirst
division science, the second understanding, the third belief, and the
fourth perception of shadows。那里再度出现perception of
shadows让自家不自觉联想起这一章初阶提及的shadows.所以还原到第②个难题怎样是shadows,我只得说没答案。

Study for the young

First study:calculation 算术

Second study: plane geometry平面几何

Third study: solid geometry立体几何

Fourth study: astronomy天体学

Why indeed, he said, when any name will dowhich expresses the thought of
the mind with clearness?

At any rate, we are satisfied, as before,to have four divisions; two for
intellect and two for opinion, and to call thefirst division science,
the second understanding, the third belief, and the fourth perception of
shadows, opinion being concerned with becoming, and intellect with
being; and so to make a proportion:—

As being is to becoming, so is pureintellect to opinion. And as
intellect is to opinion, so is science to belief,and understanding to
the perception of shadows.

But let us defer the further correlationand subdivision of the subjects
of opinion and of intellect, for it will be along enquiry, many times
longer than this has been.

ALLAN版本

Just as before, to call the first partknowledge, the second thought, the
third trust, and the fourth imagination; andthe latter two taken
together, opinion, and the former two, intellection. Andopinion has to
do with coming into being and intellection with being; and as being is
to coming into being, so is intellection to opinion; and asintellection
is to opinion, so is knowledge to trust and thought toimagination. But
as for the proportion between the things over which these areset and the
division into two parts of each- the opinable and the intelligible-let’s
let that go, Glaucon,so as not to run afoul of arguments many
timeslonger than those that have been gone through.

“那么让我们满意于前方用过的这多少个个称呼吧,[12]把第②片段号称知识,第三片段称为理智,第②部分称作信念,第肆有个别号称想象;又把第二有的和第伍有的合称意见,把第三局地和第①局地合称理性;意见是关于暴发世界的,理性是有关实在的;理性和见解的关系如同实在和发生世界的涉嫌,知识和信念的涉及、理智和设想的关联也像理性和眼光的关系。至于和那么些灵魂状态对应的东西之间的涉嫌,以及它们再各细分为两有的,能意见的一部分和能理知的一部分。这个问题,格劳孔,咱们如故别去碰它吗,免得大家被卷进一场更长日子的说理中去。”

剪辑来自:Plato(柏拉图).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.

  1. Why the name of the book called THEREPUBLIC?
    作者只是有点点明白为啥那本书叫理想国,如果是self-taught
    一拨人辛亏没职责权利回到上面,来协调管理city,但如如若其它一种情景相当于国家作育的就必须适应,从而更好管理国家。还有一些亲信感想,那里所提及动political
    life并非小编事先的偏见概念,读后刷新了那一个term在自笔者心中的地位。原来那诚然是个高大的事业。刷新三观关于Political
    life句子如下

who else will you compel to go to theguarding of the city than the men
who are most prudent in those things throughwhich a city is best
governed, and who have other honors and a better life thanthe political
life?

下边继续搬运,满满看呢,各位。特意强调下那句that it ‘s not theconcern of
law that any one class in the city as a whole, harmonizing the citizens
by persuasion and compulsion, making them share with one another the
benefit that each is able to bring to the commonwealth.

看来时候驾驭原来每一种公民身上的不得推卸的social or republic
responsibility 在此间有显示。

“苏:那么,格劳孔,你得看看,大家对大家其中出现的国学家也不会是有失公平的;我们强迫他们关怀和爱慕其他公民的看好也是正义的。我们将告诉他们:“国学家生在其他国家中有理由拒不参加劳动的政治工作,因为她俩全然是天生地发出的,不是政坛有意地作育造就的;一切自力更生不是被造就而发出的姿色不欠任哪个人的情,因此没有屏气凝神要报答作育之恩的情怀,那是正当的。可是大家曾经培训了你们——既为你们自个儿也为城邦的其余公民——做蜂房中的蜂王和领导人;你们受到了比旁人更好更完全的指导,有更大的力量出席二种生活[2]。由此你们每一种人在当班时必须下去和”“其余人同住,习惯于观察模糊影象。须知,一经习惯你就会比她们看得领悟不知多少倍的,就能鉴别各个不一致的影子并且了然影子所显示的事物的,因为您曾经看见过美者、正义者和善者的实事求是。由此大家的国家将被大家和你们清醒地保管着,而不是像以后的大部国度那么被昏昏然地管理着,被这几个为影子而相互殴斗,为权力——被看成最大的善者——而互相扯皮的人统治着。事实是:在凡是被定为统治者的人最不热心权力的城邦里肯定有最善最安定的管理,凡有与此相反的统治者的城邦里其管理必定是最恶的。”

Observe, Glaucon, that there will be noinjustice in compelling our
philosophers to have a care and providence ofothers; we shall explain to
them that in other States, men of their class arenot obliged to share in
the toils of politics: and this is reasonable, for theygrow up at their
own sweet will, and the government would rather not have them.Being
self­taught, they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a
culture which they have never received. But we have brought you into the
world to be rulers of the hive, kings of yourselves and of the other
citizens, and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they
have been educated, and you are better able to share in the double duty.
Wherefore each of you, whenhis turn comes, must go down to the general
underground abode, and get thehabit of seeing in the dark. When you have
acquired the habit, you will see tenthousand times better than the
inhabitants of the den, and you will know whatthe several images are,
and what they represent, because you have seen thebeautiful and just and
good in their truth. And thus our State, which is alsoyours, will be a
reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in aspirit
unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another
aboutshadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in
their eyesis a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which
the rulers aremost reluctant to govern is always the best and most
quietly governed, and theState in which they are most eager, the worst.

此外一版本You have again forgotten, my friend, I said, the intention of
thelegislator, who did not aim at making any one class in the State
happy abovethe rest; the happiness was to be in the whole State, and he
held the citizenstogether by persuasion and necessity, making them
benefactors of the State, andtherefore benefactors of one another; to
this end he created them, not toplease themselves, but to be his
instruments in binding up the State.

My friend, you have again forgotten, Isaid, that it ‘s not theconcern
of law that any one class in the city as a whole, harmonizing the
citizens
by persuasion and compulsion, making them share with one
another the benefit that each is able to bring to the commonwealth.

“苏:朋友,你又忘了,大家的立宪不是为城邦任何多少个阶级的卓越幸福,而是为了促成全国作为一个完全的甜美。它应用说服或强制,使全部人民互相和谐和谐,使她们把各自能向公共提供的裨益让大家享受。而它在城邦里造就那样的人,其目标就在于让他俩不致各行其是,把她们打成一片成为多个不可分的城邦公民集体。”

剪辑来自:Plato(Plato).“理想国(商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。iBooks.

最后两点补充,一是翻译相关的,别的二个是漏了的英文

翻译很有趣的点

“so it seems,“ he said.翻译为“格:很只怕有这种技术。”

技术在于肯定教育的功力时候还要用那么些sight的类比

What studies have such a power?

Would be a study to draw the soul frombecoming to being? Weren’t we
saying that it’s necessary for these men to be championsin war when they
are young?

Whats the qualification of being achampions?

Our guardian is both warrior and philosopher

还有个难点,如下句中的1个短语:

This wouldn’t be theTwirling of a shell??but the turning of a soul
around from a day that is like night tothe true day

故事easy?那里twirling of a shell
应是简简单单的意思?有轶事么?因为自个儿搜居然有那一个小孩子的翻贝壳游戏。

还是差不多忘了写读到那时候脑袋里就三个字:敬畏感

她用的词是craftsman of heaven来代指creator

原始句子allan版本那样写he will hold that the craftsman of heaven
composed it and whats in it as beautifully as such works can be composed

Motion, I said, has many forms, and not one only; two of them are
obvious enough even to wits no better than ours; and there are others,
as I imagine, which may be left to wiser persons.

But where are the two?

There is a second, I said, which is the counterpart of the one already
named. And what may that be?

政治工作,The second, I said, would seem relatively to the ears to be what the
first is to the eyes; for I conceive that as the eyes are designed to
look up at the stars, so are the ears to hear harmonious motions; and
these are sister sciences—as the Pythagoreans say, and we, Glaucon,
agree with them?

“苏:照作者看,运动不是唯有一种而是有三种。列举全数活动项目那大概是高人的事情,但即便是我们,也能揭发其中三种来。

格:哪两种?

苏:一是刚刚说的这一个天经济学,另一是和它成对的东西。

格:是哪些吧?

苏:我觉得大家可以说,正如眼睛是为天文而造的那样,我们的耳朵是为协调的声响而造的;那八个科目,正如毕达哥Russ派所主张,大家也资助的那么,格劳孔,它们是手足学科。对吗?”

剪辑来自: Plato (Plato). “理想国 (商务汉译世界学术名著丛书)”。 iBooks.

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